Posted: September 20th, 2022

Group Facilitation: Group Dynamics and Progress


Read the following chapter in your Introduction to Group Work Practice textbook:

  • Chapter 6, “Planning the Group,” pages 160–195.

Library Media

  • Group counseling with inmates: San Quentin prison [Video]. (2017). Microtraining Associates.

750 words 

Assignment Instructions

Follow these parameters to complete the assignment:

  • Short summary of the sessions.
  • Part 3: Group Dynamics. 

    Description of all four observation parameters, noting specific strengths and suggestions for improvement: 

    Facilitator ability to recognize group members’ verbal and non-verbal messages.
    Facilitator ability to interpret group members’ meaning and motivation.
    Facilitator ability to manage group members’ participation.
    Facilitator recognition of the cultural roots of expected or accepted forms of communication in the group.

  • Part 4: Group Progress. 

    Description of all three observation parameters, noting specific strengths and suggestions for improvement: 

    Facilitator ability to manage sensitive self-disclosure to the group.
    Facilitator management of issues of vertical versus horizontal disclosure.
    Facilitator management of content versus process.

  • Conclusion. 

    Explanation of overall facilitator strengths and suggestions.
    Assessment of overall group progress from Part 1 to Part 4.

A good supervisor should be able to back up their observations and suggestions with a body of evidence; as such, you should support your analyses with citations from both peer-reviewed literature and your textbook.

Submission Requirements

  • Written communication: Written communication should be free of errors that detract from the overall message.
  • APA formatting: Resources and citations should be formatted according to current APA style and formatting standards.
  • Number of resources: Minimum of five scholarly sources. All literature cited should be current, with publication dates within the past five years.




00:00:00Group Counseling with Inmates:San Quentin Prison 

00:00:00Dr. Adam Zagelbaum 

00:00:00Sonoma State University 

00:00:10Dr. Adam Zagelbaum 

00:00:10Sonoma State University 

00:00:10San Quentin Prison Volunteer 

00:00:10Adam Zagelbaum Hi. I’m Dr. Adam Zagelbaum. I thank you for being able to uh… join me in this video that we are filming about a Kid C.A.T group and that stands for Kids Creating Awareness Together. It was a curriculum piece of a Sonoma San Quentin. Uh… And essentially uh… though I serve in a volunteer role, uh… meaning that I’m not a played employee of the prison and I’m not professionally providing any salary service to do this, just wanted to give insight and an exposure to have the group that we run for support purposes and skill development unfold. Hopefully in this program, you’ll see some micro skills, and some use of reflection, and some use of open ended questions, and some use of directions in order to facilitate discussion about guilt, shame, empathy, and various things that relate to having compassion and the skills that uh… develop as a result of that. Uh… And it’s important to recognize for those that have expertise from professional training and counseling, social work, and other services on the outside that when you do this kind of work on the inside, it’s important to partner with the inmates that you’re running these programs with because obviously they have the knowledge of what goes on inside in ways that one uh… from the outside cannot. So I hope you see how this partnership unfolds when this group is running how, though I take largely a… a back sheet to some of the facilitation work that Charlie as main facilitator who is an inmate uh… provides to this group that you can see how the process still unfolds and benefits the memories that are involved who participate. So with that in mind, I hope you’ll find this experience something educational as well as experiential that will prepare you and others for wanting to volunteer your time and services in a setting similar. Thank you. 

00:02:05Check In 


00:02:10Prison inmate and group facilitator 

00:02:10Charlie So first, I just wanna thank everybody for being here and going on, you guys wait to come and… and be a part of today. So we’re just gonna start off kind of like a real group. We’ll start with a check in, and then today we’re gonna be talking about shame, guilt, and remorse, and… and worthiness and how worthiness tries into that piece. So is there anybody that wants to, wants to start check in before we get started? Yeah, Charles, go ahead. 

00:02:25Charles Umm… Charlie. Umm… I feel that my mind is little under the weather, migraine, headache, but present. Umm… Good to see you everybody. I’m here. 

00:02:40Charlie Which way you wanna go? 

00:02:45Charles To… to the right. 

00:02:45Kels Uh… My name is Kels. Uh… Last minute, I’m… I’m glad, I’m here. Uh… You know, I kind of feel honored little bit because why Charlie chose me, you know, camera. So, and so (inaudible) on me, you know this, it’s, like, it’s left human in yourself. This is kind of a big, (inaudible). I really appreciate it. And uh… I’m good, man. I’m in a good day, man. Check. 

00:03:10UNKNOWN Hi. Yeah, I’m feeling pretty good. It’s long day of work. Umm… nice to see you, buddy, Adam. (inaudible). Check. 

00:03:20Robert My name is Robert. I’m kind of happy to be here. It’s gonna be a cool conversation I believe. Uh… Yeah, thank you, Charlie, for inviting me and all, and something that I kind of ever told the last couple of weeks so, umm… but I’m good. Check. 

00:03:35Richard Hey, what’s up? I’m Richard. Well, I’m pretty good. Nice day. Well, it’s Charles’ birthday tomorrow. Feeling kind of good right now, otherwise uh… Sabbath. 


00:03:55McGil Uh… McGil. Good to see everyone. I’m glad I could be here as the San Quentin, more now on Sunday’s I have that schedule to complete with math class. I’m glad to good be here today. Umm… Yeah, it’s been a typically day right now. It’s quite busy, you know, I also like (inaudible) classes in the radio, in a (inaudible) a little bit of word ‘prep’ from the, sort of just aspect uh… and so, you know, the way it helped me because, you know, they would express something then I become emotional and I mean as I said, I’m somewhat in progress to myself with world so, I was thankful to… to the… to the radio for helping me with that. So uh… yeah, did well. Check. 

00:04:35William Hi. My name is William. I’m not familiar with the stuff so it sounded good to (inaudible). Check. 

00:04:45Daunte Yeah, well, Daunte. Everything goes well. And I wish him. Today’s my brother’s birthday so, I’m able to talk to him very well. Everything goes good. Check. 

00:04:55Dawood Umm… My name is Dawood. I wanna pick back of the words Kels and… and for this day, I wanna uh… thank Charlie for trusting in me and uh… asking me to be part of this interview. Umm… I’m looking forward to seeing what this practice is gonna be like. Umm… I guess that had a very inspirational phone call with my wife today. You know, it’s very uplifting, so I’m looking forward to see what she has offered. Just like that. 

00:05:20Charlie Um-hmm! 

00:05:20Adam Zagelbaum I’m Adam, and it’s good to see you all here and, you know, for newcomers, awesome, thanks for being interested in the process as well. Uh… I think, yeah, the discussion is gonna be uh… important for all of us and I think, it also represents well, worth volunteers like myself, and other staff that, you know, do this kind of on a regular basis can benefit for knowing and spread the word about them, help others, make yourselves and let’s just say concentration process and trying to make sure that get spread around. So welcome all, thanks for the trust and good to be here. Check. 

00:06:00Charlie Check, Charlie, checking in, uh… nervous, not used to be in front of cameras. So it’s a little different, uh… but looking forward to, how this unfolds today and feeling grateful that all of you guys came down to have this discussion and support the work that we’re doing here, so I’m feeling really great for that. Check. 

00:06:15Eric I’m Eric. I’m doing well. They started off pretty good and still going good. I have to be here and see what it turns out. So I’m looking forward for discussion and thanks for inviting me. 

00:06:25Ronald Same here. My name is Ronald. And a long day tired of, wouldn’t be anywhere else right here. So we’ve got that all the day and I hope I can get a lot out of it. I’d like to share a lot of it. 

00:06:35Joey Joey, checking in here. I had a pretty good day, a good week so far. See which class ranks can help me this time I can take away with. Check. 

00:06:45Summit Summit, uh… just been outward and coding all day, uh… busy with school and work, and although they’re actually pretty good stuff so. It’s good to be here and just take a step back. 

00:07:00Danny Danny checking in, glad to be here. I’ve been missing the Juvenile Lifers Group, so this is gonna be good. I enjoy, always enjoy this. Check. 

00:07:10Joe Joe, back to be here, still feel little jittery yesterday after a preview experience with the Border Patrol hearings, postpone it, and been in the uh… a second look at my psych evaluation. Uh… I’m little tired, but I’m bringing my emotional state back into balance, you know, I’m happy to be here today. Check. 

00:07:30Travis Uh… Travis, uh… a little… little drain, but umm… I’m excited to be here. Check. 

00:07:40Shaqiri How’s everybody doing? Shaqiri checking in. I’m pretty… pretty good today and good workout so I’m not really present right now, really wasn’t expected to uh… sit inside the circle, I just came on as a member of Kid C.A.T support group, but Charlie asked me to sit in the circle so I’m present. Check. 

00:07:55Charlie Cool. Thank you. Adam, can you walk ‘em up? 

00:07:55Adam Zagelbaum Thank you. 

00:07:55Charlie Thank you. 

00:08:00After check-in, Charlie introduces the underlying theme of today’s discussion:Societal judgments vs. self-perception. 

00:08:00Charlie calls up Dr. Zagelbaum to the whiteboard in order to signify the start of the group discussion; he also uses proxemics to non-verbally establish who the leader of the discussion is. 

00:08:00In this particular group, Charlie and Adam are co-facilitators. 

00:08:00Charlie is an inmate at San Quentin and has received training in mentoring to facilitate groups. 

00:08:00Adam helps to provide support to Charlie to further engage group discussion. 

00:08:25Charlie So we might have you write not enough on the border and then draw a line from here to the blank line. So I want you guys to start thinking about this term. So what I’m gonna write on the board is not enough, and then I’m gonna have a blank line. And I want you guys to start telling me what you don’t have enough of. And you can, you don’t have to necessarily raise your hand on this, you can kind of just start blurting things out, so not enough what? 

00:08:45UNKNOWN Time. 

00:08:50Charlie Not enough time. You know, this, some of this form we had them here. He just listed all over it. Not enough time. 

00:08:55UNKNOWN Money. 

00:08:55Charlie Not enough money. 

00:08:55UNKNOWN Not enough patience. 

00:08:55UNKNOWN Not enough support. 

00:08:55Charlie Not enough patience. 

00:09:00UNKNOWN Not enough support. 

00:09:00Charlie Not enough support. What else? 

00:09:00UNKNOWN Love. 

00:09:00UNKNOWN Understanding. 

00:09:00Charlie Not enough love. Not enough understanding. What else? 

00:09:05UNKNOWN Not enough empathy. 

00:09:05Charlie Not enough empathy. 

00:09:10UNKNOWN Not enough sympathy. 

00:09:10Charlie Not enough sympathy. 

00:09:10UNKNOWN Not enough confidence. 

00:09:10Charlie Not enough confidence. Anything else you can think of? 

00:09:15UNKNOWN Truth. 

00:09:15Charlie Not enough truth. 

00:09:20UNKNOWN Not enough emotion. 

00:09:25Charlie Not enough emotion. 

00:09:25UNKNOWN Support with the other. 

00:09:25Charlie Yes, not enough support with the other. Oh, we got that. You got that. Not enough what else? 

00:09:30UNKNOWN Not enough conscious or awareness. 

00:09:30Charlie Not enough awareness. 

00:09:35UNKNOWN Trust. 

00:09:35Charlie Not enough trust. I’m surprise sleeping up here. Right? Not enough sleep. Right? 

00:09:40Kels Can I go, get a sleep here? 

00:09:40Charlie Not enough sleep. 

00:09:45UNKNOWN Not enough room. 

00:09:45Charlie Not enough room. 

00:09:50UNKNOWN Little about just… just period, but and like, you know, I’m not enough period. 

00:09:50Open Question. 

00:09:50Charlie So I’m out not enough period, and that’s kind of what I’m trying to get at today, right. It’s starting to think about what we don’t have enough of and how growing up in our society that we can begin to feel, like, not enough. Right? And so when we start thinking about this, how do you guys feel like this might tie into shame? Adam, you wanna erase this and just write the same up. You can leave this up on the bottom. 

00:10:15Adam Zagelbaum All right. 

00:10:20Charlie Shame, so this, before we get there, let’s talk about shame a little bit. What is shame? 

00:10:25Charlie introduces the topic of shame, signaling to group members that it is time to explore thoughts, feelings, and beliefs about this concept 

00:10:35Charlie What do you guys think shame is? Yeah, Kels. 

00:10:35Kels Well, from the, hearing the class is impounded to our head, pretty good number of times, it’s not feeling, it’s not having guilt, it’s kind of like, umm… I did something and it’s like expected of me to do it, and I’m… I’m not… I don’t have any where it’s like, I don’t have, uh… I don’t feel guilty about it. I’m trying to… 

00:11:00Charlie It’s okay. It’s okay. 

00:11:00Kels …just like, I can’t, I don’t… I don’t… umm… like, I would like… I would like, it was made for me to do it anyway, not meant for me to do this, but because I don’t have any guilt like this is who I’m, so I was gonna do this anyway. 

00:11:15Charlie Okay. So you mean like pick and choose out of what you just said. 

00:11:15Kels Yeah! 

00:11:20Paraphrase with Accuracy Check 

00:11:20Charlie If I say something that, that isn’t accurate. Tell me, right? 

00:11:20Kels Yeah. 

00:11:20Charlie So you kind of said shame is… is who I am? 

00:11:20Kels Uh… yes. 

00:11:25Charlie Can you explain that a little bit more? Can you bring out a little bit for me? 

00:11:25Kels Okay, so, like, if I go, I’m not committing crime. Right? 

00:11:30Charlie Yeah. 

00:11:30Kels I’m so, I… I feel so ashamed that I feel like, this is who I am and I’m not gonna correct this behavior. 

00:11:35Charlie Good. So I hear feeling as well. 

00:11:40Kels Yeah. 

00:11:40Charlie So feeling, and can you just draw a line here for me, can you back it with feeling and then who I am. Robert, what’s in your head, go ahead. 

00:11:50Robert For me, it was something that helped me, it didn’t let me grow. 

00:11:50Charlie Didn’t let me grow? 

00:11:55Robert Didn’t let me grow forward. 

00:11:55Charlie Okay, so can we… can we… can we name that? 

00:12:00Robert Uh… yeah, it didn’t allow me to have confidence enough to move forward. 

00:12:05Charlie So a lack of confidence maybe. Can we… can we, can I use that to refer? 

00:12:05Robert Self-esteem. 

00:12:10Charlie Self-esteem. Okay, yeah, this is good. So, I’ve seen Joe and I’ll come over here to Dawood. 

00:12:15Dawood I would say, I kind of just believe that. I’m a bad person, I’m… I’m not good enough. I’m not worthy. 

00:12:20Charlie Good. So believe that I’m a bad person. 

00:12:25Dawood Yes, a conscious belief. 

00:12:25Charlie A conscious believe, I’m a bad person. 

00:12:25Dawood Yeah. 

00:12:30Open question for elaboration purpose 

00:12:30Charlie So, Joe, I want you to talk about this a little bit before I come over to Dawood. What does that mean? How about a conscious believe that I am not gonna know? 

00:12:40Joe It’s always in the presence of dark and it precedes, you know, other decision-making, other thoughts that you may contemplate so… 

00:12:50Charlie Okay, do feelings come with it? 

00:12:50Joe Feelings are associated with it. It brings about feelings thinking that. 

00:12:55Closed question for elaboration purpose 

00:12:55Charlie So for you, can you give me one of those feelings? 

00:13:00Joe Umm… to me a shameful feeling will be a feeling of warmness in my stomach. 

00:13:05Charlie Okay. 

00:13:05Joe And ease. 

00:13:05Charlie You don’t have to list this, okay. 

00:13:05Joe Teaching, maybe thinking that I’m not a good enough, or ready enough. 

00:13:10Charlie Okay. 

00:13:10Joe Sweaty hands. 

00:13:15Charlie Thank you. Dawood and then I’m gonna go to Danny. 

00:13:20Dawood Umm… Personally, I was always taught that uh… by my parents and… and my family that… that shame was a… a morality uh… deterrent, you know, I… I… I’ll say, like, say for instance, if I wanted to walk outside and… and I want to walk outside naked, my mother added, “What? You ain’t ashamed of yourself?” So with that it would, it was always instilled in me that it was a morality deterrent, but now that I’ve taken these classes like kels and Griffin all the stuff type stuff I was taught shame is not that, shame is actually saying that your crime, the crimes you committed anyway… 

00:13:50Charlie No, no, you’re good keep going. 

00:13:55Dawood Oh, the crime that you committed makes you a bad person if you take shame. 

00:14:00Charlie Good. And… and that’s the second time, I’ve kind of heard that. Right? 

00:14:00Dawood Yeah. 

00:14:00Charlie So that’s connected to “who I am?” 

00:14:00Dawood Yeah, exactly… exactly. 

00:14:05Charlie Right. So because I committed my crime, I am that. 

00:14:05Dawood Exactly. Exactly. 

00:14:10Charlie Right? And with this is something we’re gonna really pull out today and talk about. And we’re gonna talk about how this relates to our process of going to the border as well. Oh, yeah, you wanted to add something? 

00:14:20Adam Zagelbaum And don’t forget too that when we speak about feelings, it’s kind of a similar set of teasing out. Sometimes, feelings are things that… that make us feel things physically, sometimes feelings are things that kind of get to us in our heads, sometimes feelings are things that get to us from a memory or the point that are being brought up, so just remember too that if you ever have to process what a feeling is, you know, that’s another way of looking at group too because, you know, everybody will feel it maybe in a different way, you know, that’s why we talk it out in these discussions in word. Well… 

00:14:40Charlie Good. 

00:14:45In his statement to the group, Dr. Zagelbaum makes a process comment to the entire group in order to both encourage and reinforce the notion that feelings and beliefs are different for everyone, but may trigger similar responses among group members. Thus, people should feel free to share their feelings and beliefs during group discussion so that everyone can look for these similarities and differences in a safe space that is driven by support from group members. 

00:15:10Charlie Yeah, thank you. Danny? 

00:15:15Danny I kind of associate shame with as… as it’s been said, you know, connected as to who I am, umm… and then along with uh… feelings as, like, embarrassment or humiliation. I think, there was a kind of, there’s all kind of play together. 

00:15:25Charlie Okay. How do they play in for you? Explain it to me. Connect it for me. 

00:15:35Danny So for myself, uh… I have shame for my crime, but I also have shame for some of the stories I told myself as a, as a kid connecting to who I am as not being enough, or being unworthy, and then, so those… those… those stories that I told myself as a child through experience that I wasn’t, were there, I wasn’t good enough, uh… so I connected that with, well, those feelings are associated with embarrassment, humiliation, umm… you know, as to being less then… 

00:16:05Charlie Good, yeah. 

00:16:10Shared response of paraphrase with accuracy check (shows partnership between leaders) 

00:16:10Adam Zagelbaum So it sounds like the feelings, also became messages, messages became thing that kind of made a party so that’s the thing that often comes up on this end trigger. 

00:16:15DANNY Yeah. 

00:16:20Charlie Is that, does that report to you? 

00:16:20DANNY Yes. 

00:16:20Charlie Yeah. And so you nailed something is really important, right? And the heart is same. It’s the feeling of unworthiness, right? That’s a really big idea that we’re gonna keep coming back till today. Does anybody wanna say anything else about shame before I give a definition for shame? Good. So some of the ideas I’m gonna be using today are from… from a shamed researcher uh… by the name of Ernie Brown. And so some of the ideas I’m gonna be using from her, but we’re gonna be pulling a lot of it from you guys. Right? So this definition is according to Ernie Brown. And this is, this is what she says shame is, you know. Can you erase this bottom so I can move it from here. Thank you. So this is, she says that, “Shame is an intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and that… and therefore not worthy of love and belonging.” All right, I’m gonna read that again just so we can all hear. “So shame, an intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore not worthy of love and belonging.” How do you guys feel about that when I throw that out? I see a lot of head nods. Richard, what are you thinking over there? 

00:17:35Observation with challenge 

00:17:35Richard You know, it’s… it’s real crucial because those who wanted to keep going instead of me in my rehabilitation that change. 

00:17:40Charlie Yeah. 

00:17:40Richard And it… and the reason why I say it because my son, I named him my… my name and internet came, never thought the internet would come. 

00:17:50Charlie Yeah. 

00:17:50Richard And when he googled his name and he saw all of the things and the way that I behaved before in a lifestyle that I chose, he was ashamed of me and it made me feel not worthy , you know, it hurt so much. 

00:18:05Charlie Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. 

00:18:05Richard So that was crucial. 

00:18:10Charlie Thank you for all the thing you, things you shared, let me just come to McGil. 

00:18:15Robert For me, it’s the emotional thing. I mean, emotionally, like, the emotional compass is off because of shame. 

00:18:20Charlie Yeah. 

00:18:20Robert It doesn’t allow me to grow or to it uh… it doesn’t allow me to understand at times that I’m worthy of something better than what I’m giving myself in that moment that the shame is playing its game with me. And that’s important because once I understood my own shame and where it was holding me in place then I was able to deal with that and then move forward. 

00:18:55Charlie Yeah. 

00:18:55Robert Umm… It just falls back on the things that I’ve done in my life and the things that were done to me in my life. So that’s why I say that it doesn’t allow growth and my emotional compass was so off because of it, I just adapt… I chose to adapt to new beliefs, new emotional feelings, and a bunch of other stuff came with it. And until I realized that… that was happening, I couldn’t read that stuff out. 

00:19:20Charlie Good. 

00:19:25Robert Pretty much shame. 

00:19:25Charlie Thank you. Thank you for sharing us. So I have McGil and then I’m gonna move forward with another idea here. Go ahead, McGil. 

00:19:30McGil I mean, just… just thinking about it, thinking about what, it’s in my crime at times that I felt shame like my heart started beating right now and I just started feeling like… like for me shame has been something to avoid, right, like a void processing. You know, like, I feel like, I did a bad thing, I’m a bad person, and try to avoid it, forget about it, and to me that facilitated like continuing to go back to criminal behavior, make bad decisions because I felt bad, but I’m gonna put it out of my mind and… and to me that’s where like, criminal appellations come in right, like, this happened “Oh, well.” So I… I got to do what I got to do or just things they continue to feed that cycle. 

00:20:10Charlie Yeah. And… and that connects right to what people were saying. And… and Dawood was on it and somebody else said, “Who I am?” Back over here, Kels, thank you, is that thinking of a bad person, right? I am the crime that happened and that’s kind of what you’re pointing out right now. So yeah, shame is connected to that in a really important way. And so when we talked about with this definition uh… something important came up about feeling that we are flawed, right, a painful experience or painful feeling, and it says, “We’re flawed and therefore not worthy of love and belonging.” So… 

00:20:45Segment 2: 


00:20:50Group members reflect on their feelings from pre-incarceration and post-incarceration periods in their lives. 

00:21:00Charlie So let’s talk about belonging for a second. What does belonging actually mean? Is the same is fitting in? Because a lot of times we use these words interchangeably, right? So can I have you Adam write up belonging and then fitting in on this side? So let’s talk about what these are. So Danny, I’ve seen you, so what is belonging? 

00:21:20Danny Belonging is the, uh… I kind of think about, like, a… a right to be there, right? Umm… I grew up in a kind loving home and there were times when I felt like I belong there. And they were all the other times when I felt like I didn’t like, I didn’t fit in. 


00:21:40Charlie Okay. So you’re using interchangeably as well, right? 

00:21:40Danny I think that there’s a distinction there in that uh… where it comes from me. right? From my family, they saw me as belonging there. 

00:21:50Charlie Okay. 

00:21:50Danny And sometimes, I believe that. 

00:21:50Charlie Okay. 

00:21:55Danny They saw me as… uh… uh… as fitting in outwardly because I projected that on the inside. I didn’t feel like I fit anymore. 

00:22:00Charlie Okay. 

00:22:05Danny So I think, belonging, and I don’t know it… 

00:22:10Charlie It’s all right. 

00:22:10Danny It’s distinctive. 

00:22:10Charlie Yeah, yeah, go… go ahead. 

00:22:15Process level paraphrase [note that this helps Danny get back on track with his content, after being rattled by Charlie’s confrontation] 

00:22:15Adam Zagelbaum But I was just, you said an interesting phrase, maybe other guys, I’m hearing that too. On the outside, you know, the outside you didn’t feel like you were fitting in, right? And… and there is something about what you feel maybe on the inside that has a sense of belonging, is that? 

00:22:30Danny Yeah, and I think that, well, I think that it would, a lot of that depended on what I was trying to project umm… and also but what I was feeling on the inside, all right? Because there were times when I felt like I did belong there, right, that I did have a right to be there, and there are other times where I felt like I didn’t have feel like I had a right to be there. And again, I think that you went back to whatever it was, I was telling myself at the time. 

00:22:50Charlie Yeah. 

00:22:55Danny Okay. 

00:22:55Charlie Good. Again, we’ll come back to a little bit of what you’re saying right now. Shaqiri. 

00:23:00Shaqiri Yeah, so for me, uh… belonging is like uh… being accepted, it’s being a part of something. 

00:23:10Charlie Oh! write that up here. 

00:23:10Shaqiri Being accepted, being a part of something. It fitting in and there’s more that’s uh… something that I’m doing it just so, so that I can’t be a part of it. I’m not, I’m not necessarily, I’m not necessarily accepting, but I’m doing whatever the things I need to do in order to be a part of. 

00:23:30Charlie Okay, so, what can we say? What can we call that? Somebody give me a word that we can call that. 

00:23:35UNKNOWN An act. 

00:23:35Charlie An act? Fake. I like that. We’ll put act. 

00:23:35Adam Zagelbaum We’ll put act. I agree. 

00:23:40Charlie Yeah, that’s good. Right, uh… I’ll see Charles and then Dawood. 

00:23:45Use of immediacy by group member 

00:23:45Charles Belonging, I mean, this group right here, like, I feel like I’m a part of something with this group right here. I mean, these groups that we’re taking her. This group that we’re in right now, like, I’m, I feel belonging to this group right here. And then fitting in is… is the gang lifestyle. 

00:24:00Charlie So what do you mean by that? 

00:24:00Charles So that means that I have to do all kinds of stuff to fit in with some people who really don’t even care about it in the sense. I mean, it’s… it’s perpetrated that we’ll be cared by each other but really, we just wanna start the common purpose which is to glorify the gang. 

00:24:15Reflection of Meaning 

00:24:15Charlie Yeah, so let me… let me rephrase that a little bit and see if I’m on to what you think. So what you’re saying is, in fitting in, in a lifestyle, I have to take on the qualities of people I’m around and that means I’m fitting in. 

00:24:25Charles Yeah. 

00:24:30Refreaming [of the otherwise negative definition of “fake”] 

00:24:30Charlie Right? So can we put that up here? So can we put it uh… somebody said, “Fake.” Right? So can we say adapting other’s quality? 

00:24:35Charles Yeah. 

00:24:35Charlie Can we say that? 

00:24:35Charles I’m not being weak coming here. 

00:24:35Charlie Can we go with that? Go with that? I’ll see you Joe. 

00:24:40Charles Yeah, myself. 

00:24:40Charlie All right, okay, thank you, Kels. Dawood? 

00:24:45Dawood Umm… to me, belonging would be taking ownership. You know… 

00:24:50Charlie Ownership, what do you mean by that? 

00:24:50Dawood You’re actually owning the moment. You know, whatever it is, you know, uh… uh… I belong to this family. I belong to this group. 

00:25:00Charlie Yeah. 

00:25:00Dawood Uh… It’s not periodical like fitting in. Fitting in is like periodic. It’s like, it blows in the wind, you know, is… 

00:25:05Charlie So this is periodical? 

00:25:10Dawood Yeah. It has no substance, fitting in really has no substance. 

00:25:10Charlie Okay, so let’s put this down. And we’re gonna make some changes here that fitting in has no substance. Right? Anything else you wanna add? 

00:25:20Dawood No. 

00:25:20Charlie All right. Thank you. Travis, what do you thinking over there? 

00:25:25Travis I just can’t help, but keep going back in my head that belonging is an emotional connection. 

00:25:30Charlie Belonging is it an emotional connection. What do you mean by that? 

00:25:30Travis I mean when you feel you’re attached to something, you’re likely to treat it differently. Right, as suppose we’re attempting to fitting in which is a disconnection, it’s just, I’m just trying to get by, I’m trying to be present. 

00:25:40Charlie Yeah. 

00:25:40Travis Yes. 

00:25:45Charlie Yeah, thank you, really good. So what can I put over here? So we have emotional connections, what can I put here? 

00:25:50UNKNOWN Disconnection. 

00:25:55Charlie Disconnection? Okay, so can we write that? And I’ve seen a couple of hands, but I wanna stop at this point because, I think that this point is gonna be really important of understanding some of our life in the past, right? And how we got to this point, so when we say emotional connection and disconnection under fitting in, where do we disconnect it from? 

00:26:15UNKNOWN True self. 

00:26:15Charlie The True self, right? 

00:26:15UNKNOWN Yeah, yeah. 

00:26:20Charlie And so there’s a some emotional connection maybe to the self, and this disconnection from the self, so what are we losing there? 

00:26:25UNKNOWN Losing ourselves. 

00:26:30Charlie Our… our authenticity, right? 

00:26:30UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:26:30Charlie So we’re coming to something that’s really important and the difference between fitting in and belonging, right? So in belonging, belonging does not require me to change. 

00:26:40UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:26:40Charlie Right? I am who I am. 

00:26:40UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:26:45Charlie I’m authentic and I belong. I’m worthy, right? Fitting in is what? 

00:26:50McGil No discrimination. 

00:26:50Charlie I gave up my authenticity in order to take on your qualities. Why? Because I don’t feel worthy enough with who I am, so I’m gonna take on these other qualities, so I can fit in with you. All right, do we see this? What are you guys thinking about what I’m saying right now? So Robert, go ahead. 

00:27:10Robert Yeah, I just wanna talk about the fitting and accepting, belonging is… is finished as far as that goes. Fitting in… 

00:27:15Charlie Yeah. 

00:27:15Robert …or it is, well, in my experience, when I’m trying to fit in somewhere… 

00:27:20Charlie Yeah. 

00:27:20Robert …because I’m lacking something at home. So I’m looking outside that emotional connection… 

00:27:30Charlie Could be…? 

00:27:30Robert …because I’m not, either I’m not capable of spitting out what I’m missing at home or whatever it is, so I’ll go find people likewise that have the same issues that I got that are being judgmental where maybe at home, there’s something judgmental there. 

00:27:45Charlie Yeah. And… and yeah, and I think, this is gonna show up for people with in different ways. 

00:27:50Robert Right. 

00:27:50The hustle of being accepted – slang 

00:27:50Charlie Right? And this is gonna be different. And another way of putting what I’m saying is, right, fitting in, you’re giving up your authenticity in order to take on a hustle being accepted, right? 

00:28:05UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:28:05Charlie Does that make sense about what we think? 

00:28:05Dawood Yeah. 


00:28:15It is important for volunteers to recognize that allowing the group to use slang should come from the members. Using such terminology may not come across as genuine if volunteers attempt to break the ice regarding slang themselves. 

00:28:15Notice how the group becomes more responsive after Charlie breaks the ice regarding slang and prison terminology. 

00:28:35Charlie You’re hustling, you’re basically saying, “I’m the hustle for my worthiness.” I’m gonna take on everything that I need to take on for you in order to feel worthy. 

00:28:40UNKNOWN You… 

00:28:45Charlie And give the state to be accepted, right? As opposed to, I’m gonna be real. I’m gonna take my authenticity of who I am and I’m just gonna feel like I belong and I don’t need to change why. 

00:28:50UNKNOWN That’s right. 

00:28:55Charlie Because I’m worthy, right? And then we can really start connecting this stuff to a lot of our past when we think about it in this way. Joe, I’ve seen your hand buddy. 

00:29:05Joe About in the situation where you have to fit in as a tactic or strategy of survival. 

00:29:10Charlie asks for an example of “fitting in” in order to survive. Shortly after this question, you will see Adam reflect at a process level which shows a shared response of closed question with reflection of meaning and partnership between leaders. 

00:29:25Charlie So give me an example? 

00:29:30Joe You’re at level four facility in order not to be uh… seen as a someone who’s weaker saw fire, hook up with a certain group, “You know, I’ll run with this larger organizational body, so I can have this sense of protection.” 

00:29:40Charlie Yeah. I think… 

00:29:45Adam Zagelbaum So we kind of take that and over to you. I think it also sounds like in some situations or maybe (inaudible) without knowing. Sometimes, you have to start with fitting in, you know, to get comfortable in an environment and then that belonging piece happens because the environment seek what we’re trying to accomplish and that part of us connects to the belonging. So maybe it’s a process that you start here and you end up here. Is that… 

00:30:10Charlie Yeah, that’s what we’re working out here. 

00:30:10UNKNOWN Sure. 

00:30:10Adam Zagelbaum Making transactions. 

00:30:10Charlie Yeah, and I… and I’ll see you Travis, I’m coming to this. And I see in a certain center hitting on our phone is really important as well, right? So think about something for a second. Why are you, you guys wake up every morning? 

00:30:25UNKNOWN In the prison? In the cell? 

00:30:25Charlie Right, in the cell. And what is that subliminal message that’s there when you wake up in that cell? 

00:30:30UNKNOWN I don’t know. 


00:30:30Charlie You are not good enough to live in society, right? So there’s these signs of not good enough and then that leads out in prison in a lot of ways where we give up that worthiness, right, and we begin to live in this state of feeling unworthy. So I was kind of pointing out that we wake up in a place where we’re kind of being told, right, another message that you’re not good enough to you live in society. And then we often give up our authenticity in this environment for safety, right, we wanna feel safe. So we really live in this state of fitting in and the state of unworthiness, right? Again, giving up our authenticity in order to take on a hustle chasing our worthiness and feeling accepted, right? Travis, you raised your hand up first. 

00:31:15Travis So if for some reason an individual doesn’t believe they belong in society, they’re likely to commit acts to fit into something else, right? So for me, it was gang behavior. 

00:31:25Charlie Yeah. 

00:31:25Travis I was joining a gang because I didn’t feel I belong in “conventional society.” So I had changed my belief system to fit into another group of individuals in order to have that emotional connection that I felt society denied me. 

00:31:40Charlie Yeah, and that’s awesome, right? And that’s right at the heart of what we’re talking about. So what you’re saying is, “I didn’t feel good enough for who I am to live in society, right? And so it’s a game. We go back to this idea of not good enough and not being worthy enough giving up our worthiness. Thank you. Somebody else had their hand up. And I can’t remember who it was. Anybody got a comment on that? Good. So let me just talk about that for a second. Can you erase this Adam? 

00:32:00Adam Zagelbaum Yes. 

00:32:00Charlie So then people feel like they have a good understanding. What the difference is here? 

00:32:05UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:32:05Charlie Okay, so, go ahead. 

00:32:05Adam Zagelbaum I think, it’s important to recognize that they’re fluid sometimes too, right? 

00:32:10Charlie Yeah. 

00:32:10Adam Zagelbaum It came with direction in the other and, I think, that’s where the point about sacrifice… sacrifice yourself, you know, that can help you sometimes determine which one you’re at or where you wanna be because that’s another, I think… think, that’s relevant. It’s not necessarily a perfect list, it’s transitional. 

00:32:25Charlie Yeah. 

00:32:25Adam Zagelbaum It’s a process. Okay, good. 

00:32:25Charlie Okay, so we have this idea. We, now we know what shame is. So then what is guilt? 

00:32:35Segment 3: 


00:32:40Guilt is introduced as a topic, which further triggers emotional responses and thoughts surrounding the concept of shame. 

00:32:40Members are open to challenge each other regarding thoughts, feelings and beliefs about these concepts, as well as how they relate to their lives pre-incarceration and while currently serving prison sentences. 

00:32:40Topics such as guilt often require a delicate balance between reflection of content and process, while at the same time, validating the differences of opinion that can be expressed by group members. 

00:33:05Charlie We have shame on one side, right? What is guilt? So can we have, can you write guilt up there? Yeah, so I see, Kels hands first, I think. 

00:33:10Kels I’m Just having a feeling that I’ve done something wrong, you know, I feel guilty of why did, like, I have Umm… a feeling of that I hurt someone and consciously know that I heard someone and I feel, I feel sad, I feel upset, I… I have different feelings about what I’ve done, knowing that what idea was wrong for that. 

00:33:30Charlie Okay, so again, I hear a feeling. 

00:33:35Kels Yeah. 

00:33:35Charlie And I hear, umm… go ahead. 

00:33:40Kels Well, the feeling can be… 

00:33:40Charlie You said it was kind of painful, right, in a way. 

00:33:40Kels Yeah. 

00:33:45Charlie Okay, good. But we also said the same the painful feeling, right? So I just wanna point that out. Shall we put that over there too? So we can kind of start making the decisions. So I got Shaqiri and Joe. 

00:34:00Joe The guilt, the belief that I’m responsible for doing something. 

00:34:00Charlie So say again, guilt is the belief that I’m responsible for doing something? 

00:34:05Joe Yeah, may be harmful, bad. 

00:34:10Charlie Okay. So believe, say it again Joe. 

00:34:15Joe I’m responsible for doing something bad or harmful. 

00:34:15Charlie Okay, it is bad idea that relate to shame. 

00:34:20Shaqiri Yeah. 

00:34:25Charlie Yeah. How? 

00:34:25McGil So, I know, for me, I would feel that as I said earlier, I try to avoid feeling at it. I’m, like, not even think about it or just avoid it, move on to the next thing, perhaps something even worse. And so what I was gonna add was that umm… and… and from the previous class as well knowing that the guilt is I did a bad thing, the shame is, I’m a bad person, I may continue to do it. And going back to guilt is something that I know I did a bad thing, and I… I feel compelled to perhaps do something about remedy in that. 

00:34:55Charlie Uh… Where did you learn that? 

00:35:00McGil Uh… it might have been from the youth of many supporters. 

00:35:00Charlie He’s already rippled that idea. Thank you. So I think, Shaqiri and then Charles. 

00:35:05Shaqiri Well, that’s pretty much, it uh… guilt is pretty much sin, you know, that, that I did something wrong. I did something bad. The shame is saying, “I am bad. I am wrong.” 

00:35:15Reflection of meaning 

00:35:15Charlie Okay, so the difference is saying, “I did something bad,” and shame is what? 

00:35:20Shaqiri Saying, I’m… I’m something bad. 

00:35:25Charlie I am something bad. 

00:35:25Shaqiri I am bad, yeah. 

00:35:25Charlie Right. 

00:35:25Shaqiri I am wrong. 

00:35:25Charlie Okay, is it involved in it? Thank you. So can you put that up? 

00:35:30Adam Zagelbaum Yeah, I am bad. 

00:35:30Charlie Yeah, I am bad. 

00:35:30Adam Zagelbaum Okay. 

00:35:35Charlie Charles? 

00:35:35Charles I was just testing on what they were saying. It says, “The connection, like, you do some wrong, and you got same do you do some wrong.” So that’s what I was … 

00:35:40Charlie Yeah, thank you. Robert? And then I will move forward. 

00:35:45Robert For guilt, I think, what comes to mind is being apologetic. Uh… You can stay in the apology mode of guilt which will not let you grow, the same way shame won’t let you grow. If you don’t determine why you’re being held in place? What come determines with the actual fact of what you’ve done that makes you feel that way. 

00:36:10Charlie Okay. So I’m… I’m not sure I understanding so tell me again, please. So… 

00:36:10Robert Guilt is, for me, guilt is apologetic. 

00:36:15Charlie It is apologetic. 

00:36:15Robert Yeah, you can state. You can just say, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” Never go nowhere with it… 

00:36:20Charlie Okay. 

00:36:25Robert …until you understand that this is playing a part of your growth. That’s what I was talking about… 

00:36:30Charlie Yeah, with shame, yeah. 

00:36:30Robert So to me, they both are hand-in-hand in preventing you from moving forward unless you understand that you feel pain for guilt, that you believe that I’m responsible for when you did something wrong. 

00:36:45Charlie So in that sense you’re saying that, both of these guilt and shame are bad? Can be bad? 

00:36:50Robert Oh! I think, they can be bad in the event that you don’t, you’re not able to overcome and move forward. 

00:36:55Charlie Okay, I got you. So Adam… 

00:37:00Dr. Zagelbaum attempts to validate what Robert has said and connect what he has said to the group discussion regarding guilt and shame. Charlie relies on Dr. Zagelbaum to use academic expertise to assist with the content of group discussion, and allow for group members to further engage with the discussion. 

00:37:15Charlie So Adam, you have something. 

00:37:15Adam Zagelbaum I’m just saying, it sounds like we’re talking about defense mechanisms, anyway sound, it sounds like we’re talking about something that says uh… “Make this go away, make this go away, I don’t wanna feel this for too long, you know, apologize, apologize, apologize.” Whereas, you know, the deeper level of it that says, “Okay, I accept what it is.” Umm… that is what allows you to move forward as opposed to just trying to make that discomfort associated with guilt and shame go away. 

00:37:40Charlie Yeah. 

00:37:40Adam Zagelbaum Okay. 

00:37:40Charlie Good. Thank you. So I had Travis first, and then Joe. 

00:37:45Travis I think, guilt’s more connected to remorse that it is any… 

00:37:50Charlie Good, so can we write that? Yeah. So we hear this word remorse for the first time coming up. This happens to be important word for a lot of… a lot of guys in prison. Right? 

00:37:55Travis Like spin on the road. 

00:37:55Charlie You should have. 

00:38:00Reflection of meaning [underscoring of remorse] 

00:38:00Travis And I… and I say that because it… it’s an action, right? When you say I feel remorse or when you connect to remorse, you’re saying I will not commit that crime again. I will not commit that action again. I take responsibility and I’m gonna make the attempt to understand what my victim went through because of my action. 

00:38:15Charlie Did you hear that? It sound… it sound good? Sound on point? What? 

00:38:20UNKNOWN It sound likes an empathy. 

00:38:25Charlie Well, we’re gonna get to that piece a little bit later. 

00:38:25UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:38:25Charlie So I’ve seen, Joe. 

00:38:30Joe Yeah, Travis touched on it and I was gonna say the same thing that Robert was mentioning over there about the feeling of being apologetic is more along the lines of being remorseful because someone couldn’t, or I could acknowledge I’m guilty of something and not necessarily feel remorseful of body. 

00:38:45Charlie Yeah. 

00:38:45Joe I acknowledge that there’s something wrong, but there’s no sense of connection of feeling apologetic, right? 

00:38:50Charlie Can we write that word over here, apologetic? 

00:38:50UNKNOWN Okay. 

00:38:55Charlie Uh… Dan, and then I’m gonna move forward. 

00:38:55Danny The one thing that umm… that came to my mind listening what’s been saying is… is responsible, right and I’m reminded of… of the Edward Morley book we went through, you know, response able, right? 

00:39:05Charlie Sure. Yeah. 

00:39:05Danny With shame, I believe it, it’s… it’s who I am, right? There’s nothing I can do about that because I am who I am and there’s not, I can’t change that. You know, with guilt, right, I know, I recognize that I’m responsible for this, and, you know, it’s not who I am, it’s something that I did. And you know, there’s as Ed Morley says in his book, “You know, response able having integrity this, you know, being understanding that I have the ability to be responsible.” 

00:39:35Charlie Yeah. 

00:39:35Danny Right? And so when I feel guilt versus shame, I understand that I’m responsible and I am able to respond. 

00:39:40Charlie Right, yeah. Thank you. 

00:39:45Adam Zagelbaum I’m just… 

00:39:45Charlie I probably go to… 

00:39:45Reflection of meaning and content 

00:39:45Adam Zagelbaum I’m just real quick too. And Joe, you were speaking dandling fall through on that. Umm… it sounds like again, it’s kind of connecting the thoughts and the feelings together. And you can think about the actions that… that you kind of feel guilty and that interpret things about shame. Umm… But the feeling in the box together translating to the deeper action, sounds like it’s allowing more of that responsibility to… to be fuller, and deeper umm… whereas you can only think about what it is or you only feel it certainly, you may not get to that deeper level until those two parts are connected. 

00:40:20Charlie Good. 

00:40:20Adam Zagelbaum Okay. 

00:40:20Charlie Yeah, you guys are hitting it right on it, right? So how do we tell the difference between the two? At a lot of times, shame filled up in our life as… oh, excuse me, let me rephrase that. So the difference between the two is I’m stupid because I did that as opposed to I can’t believe I did that, right? So when you hear the difference between the two like, I’m stupid, I’m an idiot because I did this, right, I’m unworthy, I’m flawed, I’m not worthy of that love and belonging that we talked about as opposed to I can’t believe I did this all right, which is the responsibility piece, the apologetic piece, right? Do we hear that difference? You guys agree with that? 

00:41:05UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:41:05UNKNOWN Yes. 

00:41:05Charlie So I see a no, let me see, let me hear the no. 

00:41:10Robert Umm… just sitting here, I’m just kind of thinking. That… the transition from those oh, yeah, I hear what you’re saying. 

00:41:25Charlie Yeah. 

00:41:25Robert But the transition from those when I look at the word remorse up there, I think of compassion. 

00:41:30Charlie Yeah, we’re gonna get to compassion today. 

00:41:30Robert Umm… I’m sure we are. But saying that, man, I can’t believe I did that. 

00:41:40Charlie Yeah. 

00:41:40Robert It is a sense of responsibility for what has just happened. 

00:41:45Charlie That’s right. 

00:41:45Robert Right? 

00:41:45Charlie Uh-mm. 

00:41:50Robert And they’re going, “Oh, my God, I can’t believe that just happened.” 

00:41:55Charlie Right. 

00:41:55Robert To me, that falls warned or shame side. 

00:42:00Charlie No. Yeah. So… so let’s look at that right. So if I say, if I say, I can’t believe I did that and I feel sorry for doing it. I’m more likely to change that behavior making an amends, true? Right? As opposed to I’m an idiot because I did that, right, I’m the act, I’m not a good person, I’m unworthy of that love and belonging, right? So what happens there? I’m less likely to make an amends and change my behavior because I’m the bad person. I am the bad. 

00:42:35Robert So… 

00:42:35Charlie Yeah, go ahead. Sure, you can. 

00:42:35Robert So in shame, shame doesn’t initially come from the individual, it comes from outside the individual. Would you say that to be true? 

00:42:45Charlie I’m gonna turn that over to Adam. 

00:42:50Adam Zagelbaum The way I’m gonna uh… approach that it’s just a safe, the message can be external. 

00:42:55Dr. Zagelbaum attempts to validate what Robert has said and connect what he has said to the group discussion regarding guilt and shame. Charlie relies on Dr. Zagelbaum to use academic expertise to assist with the content of group discussion, and allow for group members to further engage with the discussion. 

00:43:20Adam Zagelbaum You may not hear that message because it’s the thing you’ve told yourself, so you might have an internal script that gives you shame and something along those lines, but there’s a source that could be external about shame. There can be an internal belief system that… that reinforces it too. So… 

00:43:35Robert So, we can say, it’s an adoption by the individual from the external source. 

00:43:40Adam Zagelbaum Yes, I think that’s fair because the message of shame umm… it hurt is certainly often and often the way I guess that it comes out backing internalized. 

00:43:50Charlie That answer your question? 

00:43:50Robert No, perfectly, I mean, I actually learned something. 

00:43:55Charlie Yeah, right, well, I’m glad you learned something. 

00:43:55Robert Yeah. 

00:44:00Charlie So yeah, and so what we can see with this a lot of times is shame is connected to this out fulfilling prophecy, right? So if I am a bad person, then why do I need to change my behavior? Because I’m bad, I’m… I’m gonna hurt people, or I’m gonna thrive, where as opposed to I can’t believe it. We’re just one more likely to change the behavior and make it a meant, right, which is directly connected to remorse. 

00:44:25Adam Zagelbaum Can I have… 

00:44:25Charlie Yeah. 

00:44:30Self-disclosure with information-giving, shows partnership between group leaders 

00:44:30Adam Zagelbaum Don’t keep in mind a sense of shame, it’s still something that we figure out, I think, internally through many other cues that are external. So I don’t wanna make it sound absolute any particular circumstance, but, I think, it is fair to say that a lot of things that create shame are based on, you know, context, and external cues, and things that, I think, more large thing is supposed to through external stuff. 

00:44:50Robert Could that… could that be through uh… uh… an addictive personality as well that this is more so to happen to a person would have an addictive personality, or an addictive behavior to adopt such a feeling or sense of shame here? 

00:45:10Charlie I… I would… 

00:45:15Robert Would there be quicker, just to… 

00:45:15Charlie So I would, I would even argue in some way and flip it to say that a lot of addictions are due to the feelings of unworthiness and shame. 

00:45:20UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:45:25Charlie Right, as opposed to just quicker to adopt it. I think that all of us to some degree face those messages, those external messages about not being worthy enough and about not having enough and not being enough, right? And that, that can oftentimes drop, drive people to give up and start trying to fit in and chasing this worthiness that they never really arrived to. Because what they’re really seeking is just to belong, right? That love and belonging, that primal instinct for love and… and belonging. Shaqiri. 

00:46:00Shaqiri So I just hear you guys talk about shame… 

00:46:00Charlie Yeah. 

00:46:05Shaqiri …in a external aspect of it like, I can recall like… 

00:46:05Charlie Sure. 

00:46:05Shaqiri …in my childhood, adolescent years, you know, I would do things and people would say, I’m bad. I’m bad. 

00:46:10Charlie Yeah. 

00:46:15Shaqiri I started to take that on that, Okay, I’m bad. So I used to do bad things and I continued to do bad things, you know, all throughout, you know, junior, high so on and so forth. You know, committing crimes, uh… delinquent activities and so on and so forth because I took on that shame is being a bad person. 

00:46:30Charlie Yeah, and that’s really connected what Travis was saying earlier about not feeling the belonging at home, right? There’s something that’s not happening at home and so we seek it somewhere else, right? Because if you were feeling that, you were, maybe the behavior was bad, but secure is not bad, right? You’re definitely worthy of love and belonging at home. Things may be different for you. 

00:46:50Adam Zagelbaum Yeah, I think this is sometimes where we get that expression uh… sense of shame, right? You… you get the sense of shame through the huge and things that you could pick up on, but also have you process it in general. Thank you. 

00:47:00Charlie Good. 

00:47:00UNKNOWN I didn’t know that… 

00:47:05Charlie Yeah, of course not. And that’s part of the reason why we’re… we’re talking about it today, right? To be able to identify these sentence and make the decision, but I do wanna throw this into the arena of how it plays out in the board, right? So when we look at this, because we… we’ve had question asking here before and what is this distinction that the room you’re looking for if we look at it up here? 

00:47:30Kels Yeah, right. 

00:47:35Charlie So does this person still live in shame? 

00:47:35UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:47:35Charlie And how is that living in shame continue to make you a threat, right? Because if I am that person and I believe that’s who I am, and that fly to me to make it immense for what I have done and live with remorse. All right, do we see how that’s connected? Yeah, Travis? 

00:47:55Travis Yeah, I think living in shame gives you an excuse to commit an act again. 

00:48:00Charlie Yes. 

00:48:00Travis As we said earlier. 

00:48:00Charlie Absolutely! 

00:48:00Travis I am bad. Bad people do bad things, and that’s who I am. So when you define yourself as that it gives you an excuse to commit a behavior. 

00:48:10Charlie That’s right. 

00:48:10Travis Yeah. 

00:48:10Closed question/Information Giving 

00:48:10Charlie Right? And… and that’s powerful stuff and they wanna see that you have identified what these two things are and can you overcome those external messages that you’re still gonna face when you go home? Right? And we talked about it earlier, Joe somewhat brought the example being in prison and how we’re faced with this shame, this unworthiness on a high level in you. It’s literally being told to us the moment we wake up, before our feet even hit the floor in a way you’re being told, “You are not good enough to live in my society.” Right? And do you realize here that if you’re not careful about recognizing that message, you could fall into the unworthiness and shame. Kels. 

00:48:50Kels Yeah, I’m… I’m thinking about something, right, I’m saying like, you commit a crime and you don’t feel remorse for it, right? But you don’t have shame from the crime. I mean, is that even possible? 

00:49:05Adam Zagelbaum Oh, all I can say to you is, I mean, act. There are ways of acknowledging things and there are ways of being disconnected as we said before. It is difficult to give a universal answer to that. 

00:49:20Charlie calls on Dr. Zagelbaum to reflect academic components of remorse, guilt and shame. By validating the content of Kels’ message, the group is encouraged to respond with their knowledge and various perspectives. 

00:49:35Adam Zagelbaum I guess, is it possible, it could be possible for somebody to not be responsible or consciously aware of what those uh… messages are and how to take the responsibility, but is the feeling or the sense of it out there. 

00:49:50Kels Well… well, it’s like, I’ll go, I’ll not commit a crime to benefit the… the neighborhood. 

00:49:55Charlie Yeah. 

00:49:55Kels Right? I won’t have any remorse for what I did, but I’m not also feeling like I’m a bad person before I did. 

00:50:00Charlie So what’s wrong with what Kels is saying? Travis. 

00:50:05Travis Well, again, if you are living in shame because you’re identifying yourself as the gang member, right, you’re already telling yourself, you’re a certain type of individual. So it’s okay to go commit that act. 

00:50:15Charlie Right. 

00:50:15Travis So in a way you are living in shame of something else not necessary that act you committed, but living in shame from past experiences, or traumas, or whatever is it’s transpired your life time is allowing you to commit that. 

00:50:25Charlie So… so good. And yes, that’s exactly, you started from a point of, “If I do something for the neighborhood,” so I’m already trying to fit in, right? I’m already living in the shame… 

00:50:40UNKNOWN Yeah. 

00:50:40Charlie …as opposed to the place of belonging, coming from a place of love and belonging, thinking I’m worthy enough for those things. Does that make sense? 

00:50:45Kels No, I just want, I just wanna sort it out. 

00:50:50Charlie Yeah. So in… in other words to get back to your question, the answer is that you’re living in this and probably don’t even realize it yet and have shut down the emotions hat will allow you to fill guilt and… and remorse for what you’ve done. 

00:51:00Adam Zagelbaum You know, it’s kind of like that I always do, the tree falls in the forest doesn’t make sound. I mean, it is possible that we’re gonna beat that, but the act of the tree falling unlikely create that noise and that sound, whether or not we are open to hearing that noise, different story. That’s one point from this discussion. 

00:51:20Joe Yeah. 

00:51:25Charlie Good, Joe, and then I’m gonna move on to some… some stuff. Go ahead. 

00:51:25Joe Is shame always bad thing? Isn’t there such things it’s good shame, healthy shame, and toxic shame. 

00:51:30Charlie uses self-disclosure to emphasize his opinions about the concept of shame. Notice that by prefacing what his opinions are before providing his responses to group members, he is able to allow the group process to flow without overusing his authority to do so. 

00:51:30Dr. Zagelbaum intentionally waits until the group process completes and then provides a summary statement to reiterate content and reinforce group members to engage in sharing their different perspectives. 

00:52:00Charlie So I’m gonna say, you know, right, I don’t think, there’s a good thing that there’s… there’s a good aspect of shame. Now this is Charlie saying though, right, and the reason for that is because of the, “I am bad piece.” There is a positive aspect to guilt, right? Because guilt is directly tied to the remorse, right, the responsibility piece of it and could be a motivating factor where I don’t believe shame is because you’re already in that state of not feeling worthy. And I see, somebody shaking their head. Go ahead. 

00:52:40Danny Oh, yeah, so I am always gonna say and I have shame and guilt over the crime I committed, right? And I say that because I wanna make the distinction because and I said before that I connect shame with feelings of embarrassment, humiliation. 

00:52:50Charlie Sure. 

00:52:50Danny I… I and I’d like that the phrase toxic shame, and uh… the idea of healthy shame, right? Uh… Yes, I had a lot of shame, a toxic shame that… that, you know, I am a murderer, I’m always gonna be a murderer, right, and in a sense, I believe that, right. In a sense, right, but you know, I’m not gonna say that I’m not a shit that I don’t have shame for… for committing murder or you know, because I do because there’s embarrassment, humiliation and I connect out with… with the idea of shame. But you know, I do no longer identify. Well, let me say it again as Adam said, I think, it’s a fluid, I like thinking it as, you know transitive, right. I do sometimes fall back into that core belief that… that are unworthy of love and sentiment. 

00:53:40Charlie That’s right. 

00:53:40Danny And when I do, that’s when I kind of connect with that toxic shame. 

00:53:45Charlie Good. 

00:53:45Danny But when I don’t, you know, I… I still have that shame. I’m, I know that word, I’m never gonna stop saying it. 

00:53:50Charlie Okay, and I think that this, so you’re hanging on something that’s really important, right? And I, and I think that today hitting on these, this is why so important to be able to make those decisions. Yes, right? I think that we are constantly faced with falling into this… this shame, right? And… and part of that is not fully coming to accept our past or the parts of us, the dark sides of us that everybody has and owning the flaw on this that lives in… in us, right? So there’s always that piece of, “If we’re not careful, we could fall back into this.” But also understanding that you are worthy, right? And it’s okay to still feel the guilt for what you’ve done, right? So it’s… it’s… it’s working these things out, and really understanding, “When I’m in, which one?” That is a really important thing, right? And we’re gonna talk about today in about two minutes, we’re gonna talk about how to, how to deal with shame. I think it was McGil. 

00:54:50McGil Yeah, now I want to just say personal believe that value we assign to give in terms, we get a lot of terms here, right? 

00:54:55Charlie Yeah. 

00:54:55McGil (inaudible). 

00:55:00Charlie Yeah, sure. 

00:55:00McGil I think some degree, the value assigned to the term is as important like as like what Danny was describing, like, what I thought it was like, I think it’s normal to ask yourself, right, “Do I feel this, am I bad person because of this?” Like proposing the question and I think that’s what you were describing like when you went back forth a little bit. And I think, I think that’s something healthy. I think unhealthy part would be probably shame, or toxic and that it stands up there, right? 

00:55:25Charlie Good, yeah. 

00:55:25Adam Zagelbaum And that, well, I’m already thinking that, all of that too, there’s a shape that’s also on when we have the discussion on internal, external. I mean, it is not again something that I can always say, is this way, is that way, we might have different backgrounds or different things that contribute to where the messages come from and what we’re consciously aware of. So also figuring out, where did the mostly external and the mostly internal come from? It’s the same validity. If you’re working with it in that sense of shame or that sense of guilt is what… is clearly driving you to make the change, then that’s really where we’re at. Not so much about where it started in that point. Does that make sense what I’m going with? Okay, thank you. 

00:56:05UNKNOWN Thanks with that. 

00:56:10Charlie Yeah, so Robert and then I need to move forward. 

00:56:10Robert Just getting really quick. 

00:56:10Charlie Yeah. 

00:56:10Robert I think you made a good point when we first started this… 

00:56:15Charlie Sure. 

00:56:15Robert …how do you suggest, it’s gonna be really important for the board and it isn’t this… 


00:56:20Charlie And for yourselves, right? 

00:56:20Robert …intricate. 

00:56:20Charlie I just want to say that. 

00:56:20Robert Really, intricate part of your hearing when you say, you’ve come to terms with your crime. 

00:56:25Charlie That’s right. 

00:56:25Robert Because if you don’t and you have to explain that guilt and shame, so the hats off to you for… for bringing this up. I’ve been… my experience at the board is that and will, once you say you’ve come to terms of what you’ve done and it will no longer hold you in place, this is coming up. 

00:56:45Charlie That’s, and… and that’s right, right? Because when you look at making the amends in you, you look at remorse, making you amends and remorse is living your life differently, right? Having come to peace with the past and the dark sides, right? And living differently and… and that is a big piece of actually having real remorse and making your amends for what we’ve done in our lives, right? And it’s less likely gonna do that if you live in this place of shame. Good. Yeah? How good we’re feeling so far? 

00:57:20UNKNOWN It was about two minute. 

00:57:20Charlie It was about two minutes? 

00:57:20UNKNOWN Yeah, it was about two minutes. 

00:57:20Charlie All right, so how do… 

00:57:25Segment 4: 

00:57:25How do we deal with shame? 

00:57:30The transition into the topic of shame signifies that the group is moving into an Action Stage. Members are asked to take abstract thoughts and feelings and translate them into behaviors and strategies. 

00:57:30Sometimes, role plays are used during these portions of the group, but for today’s discussion, a review of strategies with some illustrative dialogue from Charlie is used to deliver this material. 

00:57:50Charlie So how do we deal with him shame? Right? So how do we do for a reason? How do we deal with those messages, right? When we’re, when we’re sitting in that piece of “Am I a bad person because of what I’ve done?” How do we deal with it? So the first thing and these ideas are again directly from Ernie Brown, right? I love, I love her work. She’s awesome, of course. The first thing is courage, right? What does courage mean? Somebody give me an idea about courage. 

00:58:20UNKNOWN To face your fear. 

00:58:20Charlie Face your fear. Face your fear and what is your fear? 

00:58:30Danny And now… now the fear is not getting out of prison. 

00:58:35Charlie Yeah, fairly, okay, fairly good. Fairly, not getting out of prison, right? We can write that, I mean, we can look at that, just write courage for me. So I think you got something to say? 

00:58:40UNKNOWN No. 

00:58:45Charlie Okay, so I think that umm… courage has come to… to kind of express heroics, right? A lot of people think, “Oh, it takes courage to be hero kind of thing.” That’s not the definition. So when we go back to the root word of courage, it is COR, C-O-R, Latin word COR, for heart, right? And so what courage means is the original… the original definition of courage means, “To speak all of one’s mind by telling all of one’s heart.” Right? So just, can we write this out please? 

00:59:20Adam Zagelbaum Yeah. 

00:59:20Charlie Yes, it’d be really important. 

00:59:20Adam Zagelbaum Sure. 

00:59:25Charlie To speak all of one’s mind by telling all of one’s heart. So let me put this into perspective, right? So Dawood, right now, I’m feeling like I’m a bad person because I took somebody’s life. And I don’t feel like I’m worthy to live back in society. All right, being able to put words to what I’m feeling, that vulnerability, and letting that energy out and what happens with the person that I’m talking to? 

00:59:55UNKNOWN You feel it. 

00:59:55Dawood You begin to connect with him. 

01:00:00Charlie Woo! Connection that will be, can you write down this? That’s good. The connection, yeah, you really smart. Connection right? So these are the things. So there’s nothing that shame hates more than speaking about it, all right, and getting it out. And shall we do that with everybody we meet? 

01:00:20Dawood No. 

01:00:20Charlie No? 

01:00:20Dawood No. 

01:00:25Charlie What are you thinking Eric? 

01:00:25Eric Uh… I’m thinking uh… that there’s a connection with the person that you’re talking to, it might be good to talk about it, but you definitely want to get it outdoor. 

01:00:30Charlie Yeah. 

01:00:30Eric You know, for me uh… talking about it help me. 

01:00:35Charlie Yeah. 

01:00:35Eric I didn’t really start to move forward and to as not to talk about it. 

01:00:40Charlie Good, thank you. So I’m gonna go back to my paper and I’m gonna read the definition of courage because my paper’s good. All right, right, so let’s look at it. So courage, to speak one’s mind by telling all of one’s heart, right, but it is also speaking honestly and openly about who we are, bout what we’re feeling, and about our experiences, all right. So how people feel when I say that? 

01:01:10UNKNOWN Can you read that again? 

01:01:15Information giving/illustrative dialogue 

01:01:15Charlie Yeah, sure. So we already have that definition on board. Umm… so this, so speaking honestly and openly about who we are, about what we’re feeling, and about our experiences, right? So again, we can go back to… this doesn’t just have to be connected to the crime, right? There’s lots of different ways in which we feel ashamed, right? And there’s lots of ways in which we participate in shame. So just to recognize a little bit earlier when we first started talking about shame, uh… Dawood talked about his life saying, “Aren’t you ashamed boy? Don’t go outside naked.” When we really look at that, we… we start to see how shame is often used as a management tool in our society. And we see it a lot playing out in this environment as well. So used to control people through shame, right? So how many people have been in the classroom with somebody who just keeps talking and won’t stop talking that he sounds crazy and everybody starts laughing out because he’s not on point and then the guy stops talking, right? Why? Because we just shamed it, we’re just basically told you’re not worthy enough to speak in this group, right? So we see shame shows up in a lot of different ways and there’s a lot of different messages and with… ’n’ ways that it shot us. Eric. 

01:02:30Eric I’ve even been… been known to commit suicide and killing self because of shame… 

01:02:35Charlie Yeah. That’s right. 

01:02:35UNKNOWN …and I’m never in like in a military even though I’ve never been here, I have never seen it on TV, that shows, not to take that walk for shame, when they put uh… sores and make them walk and you turn it back to, that’s the worst feeling in the world not to be accepted by your peers and your friends, just to be ashamed. So it can be very powerful. 

01:02:50Charlie Yeah, and that, and that… that’s directly connected to that worthiness of love and belonging, right? That love and belonging is the most primal instinct that we have as human beings. It’s really powerful. Anybody want to say anything about this before we move forward? So we see courage is the first part. Shaqiri? 

01:03:05Shaqiri I’m just thinking about uh… that uh… the, about vulnerability. 

01:03:10Charlie Yeah. 

01:03:10Shaqiri Like, we… we say being open and honest and umm… the definition of courage. What comes to my mind is just being vulnerable. 

01:03:20Charlie Yes, so that’s good. And so we can put that up here. Courage is the actually putting vulnerability on the line, all right? It’s saying, I’m gonna be among and this is what I want to tell you, right? And again, now let’s go back to the connection because this is really important, right, so what is the connection? How can we give a definition to connection? Anybody take a shot at it? 

01:03:40Ronald I think the connection is like mind it or excuse me. 

01:03:45Charlie Go ahead. 

01:03:50Ronald And the connection is like, “Man, like mine it was no one else.” You, guys are just thinking on the same page or you are into the same thing and you feel that umm… not just fitting in, but you actually, uh… it’s belonging that you connected with this person. 

01:04:00Charlie Yeah, okay. Good, thank you for that. Kels, you want to close them up? 

01:04:05Kels Uh… Somebody else wants to, yeah. I mean, not me yet, go ahead. I’ll talk when you say everything some source. 

01:04:10Charlie Yeah. I think so. 

01:04:15Dawood Uh… Having common interests. 

01:04:20Charlie Common interests? Okay. Yeah, anybody else? Joe? 

01:04:25Joe Joining the beliefs, values, or thoughts. 

01:04:25Charlie Okay. So this, we just said to this. Let’s see if any of it connects, right? So connection, the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued, when they can give and receives without judgment. All right, so I’ll read that again. Can you write on the board? So the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, valued, when they can give and receive without judgment. All right, so this really comes to the idea that we have to have discernment and who we talk to, right? Feeling valued, feeling seen, feeling heard, right? Yeah, Danny. 

01:05:15Danny Yeah, the uh… you know, the feeling, valued, I think that one of the things that I’ve recognized after coming here, San Quentin… 

01:05:20Charlie Yeah. 

01:05:25Danny …interacting with so many volunteers from the outside, is that something happens when, you know, an inmate connects with somebody from the outside uh… in a way that… that he now feels a sense of value and that volunteer is… is really listening and he feels heard. 

01:05:40Charlie Yeah. 

01:05:40Danny I… I think there’s something that happens there to his own dignity that is a really crucial when it comes to rehabilitation. 

01:05:50Charlie Yeah, and that’s really interesting, right. So let’s talk about that for a second because it’s just, in some, it just occurred to me. Because you, we… I’ve seen multiple times where guys in blue will somehow give a certain value to a person on the outside. So I could say that exact same thing is Adam and the guys are more likely to believe Adam than the army, right? Yeah, so let’s look… 


01:06:20Charlie All right, but even if they didn’t know that about Adam, right? Then we still be more likely to believe him. And what’s really interesting is it just occurred to me as we put it into this context that we’re talking about right now, that is because when we really look at that feeling of unworthiness, I’m in your society, right? Where Adam is in that outside society that says, “You’re unworthy to live up here,” right? And this is just an aspect for us to look at. So what is that person really feeling when they’re more likely to believe Adam than me? All right, so just, I’m just going out there. Go ahead. 

01:07:00Daunte I would say, umm… well, for me, it is like, (inaudible) that I don’t know like, why you are really worried if you know all this. 

01:07:05Charlie Yeah, yeah and so you may not be just shamed, right? I was just, what it occurred at the moment. Yeah… yeah, Joe. 

01:07:15Joe Uh… just commenting on a last example you just gave… 

01:07:15Charlie Sure. 

01:07:15Joe …so you take a look at the last words of connection. 

01:07:20Charlie Yeah. 

01:07:20Joe Judgment, so judgment praising if someone doesn’t take to heart the same thing that you would tell them, that Adam would tell them when you’re conveying the information. 

01:07:30Charlie Yeah, yeah, you ever thought that? 

01:07:35Eric I mean… I mean, I’m talking about a dirty figure. I mean, some reason, you know, you can see somebody uh… I can be a criminal and put on a police uniform and walk on next door and nobody’s saying nothing. If they believe that I’m an actual officer, but I actually can be a criminal which I haven’t done that but done something similar. 

01:07:50Charlie Yeah. 

01:07:50Eric You know, uh… you can walk into the program office right now with a broom and they believe that that sort of janitor, they’re most likely to walk right by. 

01:08:00Charlie Yeah. 

01:08:00Eric So that’s the… the… the presence of authority figure, an innate them from being the child that’s been like installed in you, you know, at a young age, you know, authority figure, authority figure. 

01:08:05Charlie Thank you. 

01:08:10Next you will see Dr. Zagelbaum use self-disclosure in a very specific way. The story he tells centers on being authentic about one’s knowledge, and why this authenticity is important in a group process. Volunteers must be mindful of self-disclosure, but in a support group such as this, self-disclosure can be a powerful tool that deepens group process when used in this brief manner. 

01:08:30Charlie You, guys have something to add to that and then I got Shaqiri. 

01:08:30Adam Zagelbaum Because there’s another way of looking at you from being I am somebody from the office that comes in, umm… and sometimes there’s… there’s a way that, you know, we bestow that title on… on the result protected, but umm… when we see a moment of genuineness or sincerity about it, umm… it, it’s sometimes connection in different ways. Like, a great example that I often give when I’m doing this, I know McGil already know where I’m going. Umm… You wanna tell the story? 

01:08:55McGil No, go ahead. 

01:09:00Adam Zagelbaum Okay. One of the first things that I ever did when I was in uh… this space with… with folks, you know, running the support group was uh… I was trying to present information, right, umm… in a way that, uh… my authority expertise whatever you wanna call was meaningless and somebody threw out a term in the group a… a bindle. And uh… and I didn’t know what that was, and they were unsure about whether I was authentic because possibly of that or at least, let’s just say, how was he gonna react because he didn’t know that, umm… because I had the authority and the stuff. I could have played it off like, yeah, I know what that is, no problem and just moved on. But I took that moment and admitted it, didn’t know, everybody in the group supported the fact, they can help me understand and give me some insight and some, you know, knowledge that that, otherwise I wouldn’t be exposed to and that authority kind of balanced out. 

01:09:55Charlie Right, so we here courage there, right? 

01:10:00Adam Zagelbaum Yeah. 

01:10:00Charlie The compact that piece. I spoke what I was actually feeling, I loved myself to be vulnerable in the minute, in the moment as opposed to trying to fit in and be like uh… I know what that is, right? 

01:10:10Adam Zagelbaum And the embarrassment part of it, I embraced it, you know, if anything, it’s a great teachable moment for a lot of levels and a lot of layers to this. Instead of running from it, we use it and… and there’s a difference I think in that work and I’m gonna encourage regardless of the external-internal to the, you know, authority and that kind of… that… that’s a good moment I think for us to even know we have these groups. 

01:10:35Charlie Good. So somebody had their hand up. Yeah, go ahead. 

01:10:35Shaqiri Yeah, uh… I would appreciate this conversation, and I really can relate to it in a personal level. 

01:10:40Charlie As deep though. 

01:10:45Shaqiri Uh… Because when I, when I first attended a symposium uh… and I sit aside in the circle, when I first got here in the San Quentin, uh… I was compelled to be open and honest about the crime I committed. And uh… and it took courage for me to do that and I was in a vulnerable place at that time. But the idea like, when you talk about the connection aspect like living in the environment with… with… with other men and blue and whatnot, it’s like I’m used to looks of judgment. So, you know, it’s like, uh… I know your story, you know my story, it’s… it’s nothing, there’s… there’s a story it look. But from the outside, uh… it was, it was the looks of everything that I, that I’ve received, you know, on the women inside the circle as opposed to the looks of judgment that I was so used to, that really had an impact on me, right. And… and at that point it made me realized, okay, that I was he, and I was her, and that I was valued, and I was able to make a connection and it influenced, my, like, my bro. 

01:11:45Charlie Yeah… yeah. Thank you for that. Eric, and then I’m gonna move forward ‘cause we’ve got one more, so I’ll come to you. 

01:11:50Eric Umm… Our degree of intelligence though, I mean, I… I wouldn’t expect anything less from you, gentlemen, here for it being open and honest and have that connection. But if I was talking to a group of idiots, I mean, I wouldn’t spend any time but… 

01:12:00Charlie Yeah, all right. And that goes back to picking the right person, right, that discernment. And… and… and knowing that the person isn’t gonna fall into the shame with you, all right, though they are just feeling seen and feeling heard and valued is a form of empathy, which Kels brought up earlier. 

01:12:20Adam Zagelbaum Sometimes we have to work on those connections that are based on some of the, you know, knowing the group and knowing how to look to those connections that then hopes with that process. 

01:12:30Charlie Thank you. So that’s for the third one up there. What do you think the third one is? 

01:12:30UNKNOWN Remorse, starts with the ‘C’ though. 

01:12:35Charlie Starts with the ‘C’ it does. Yeah, good guess. 

01:12:35UNKNOWN Compassion. 

01:12:40Open question, Topic shift 

01:12:40Charlie What? Compassion. What is compassion? This is always really interesting discussion I have in the room, it is (inaudible). 

01:12:50UNKNOWN That paper size. 

01:12:50Charlie Well… Joe, go ahead. All right, we’ll hold on, Kels had something then I’ll talk about something important. So you want to share that out? 

01:13:00Kels No, go ahead, I think class’s fine. 

01:13:00Charlie Okay. Thank you. Joe. 

01:13:00Joe I was thinking pastors attempting to alleviate the suffering and so on. 

01:13:05Charlie Umm… Where would you learn that? 

01:13:05Joe Uh… In the wild piece of work. 

01:13:10Adam Zagelbaum Some days it’s too fun. 

01:13:10Charlie So he says, so he said, he said, he said, relieving suffering somehow. People do that, I’ll write over here. I don’t know where we agree with this. Do you agree that? 

01:13:20UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:13:25Charlie Is there anything else? What, Travis, do you have something like that? 

01:13:25Travis I’m just uh… interested to see what you’re about to write up there than talking. 

01:13:30Charlie Relieve suffering, what else? What else might it be? 

01:13:30Ronald And the same time, seeing somebody hurt and just feel their pain. 

01:13:35Charlie So that was empathy, right? 

01:13:35Ronald Mm-hmm. 

01:13:40Charlie Right? So that we see, but it’s connected, certainly connected. Uh… That’s good and I think a… a lot of people get these and this is why it’s really good to have these discussions, right? Because a lot of times people say, “Oh, yeah… yeah… yeah, I value empathy,” but I don’t even know what it is, right? Or value, compassion and they really don’t know what it is. But… 

01:14:00McGil Uh… I think what we’ve had the discussions we’ve had in the past about sympathy and empathy, and what distinguishes all these terms. 

01:14:05Charlie Yeah. 

01:14:05McGil And sometimes we talk about the passion, it’s been the… the willingness or the compulsion to act to do the alleviate and so… 

01:14:15Charlie Yeah, good. And so I… I want to talk about that for a second. So let me talk about the action, right. So when we look at things, courage, when we look at empathy, when we look at love, when we look at these things, if we look at them as… as just values, then we’re less likely to act upon them. But if we look at them as actions, right, the courage is an action, connection is an action, capacity is an action, then we claim responsibility and accountability for them. So if we can look at in that way then we can begin to play them out in our lives. So that’s a really important piece and thank you for bringing that out. So compassion, anybody else wants to take a shot? All right, (inaudible). Yeah, go ahead. 

01:14:55Kels Well, I was just gonna, I’ll just, umm… I’m… I’m connecting all the three. 

01:15:00Charlie Yeah, sure. They’re… they’re definitely connected. 

01:15:00Self-disclosure with validation from group leader 

01:15:00Kels Yeah, into uh… couple of days ago at my work, it was uh… a white guy right? Yeah, he fell out of his chair. And umm… it was me and this other guy was playing cards and a couple of other guys were staring and watch me, and my partner and I was there watching, so I just got up and I went to help the guy when putting back in his chair. So I didn’t, uh… think was a big deal, I just kind of like, okay, you know, lets, whatever. So I’ll go back, they’ll bring the bill, we got to go back to finish work and so I go back. Another white guy came over to my work area, he said, “And he asks the man, he said, “I appreciate you. You made me, you taught me something.” I said, first, I’m, I already know what he’s talking about, right, I… I only talk to this guy, not nice ending like that, but he’s waiting at different stations. So I said, “Well, you know, what do you mean?” He said, “Man, you showed me, so always help a man when he’s down.” I was like and then I was still chipping off of it and then when he told me about what I did for the white guy, so okay, so now I’m looking at this like I had the courage to actually go over. I didn’t think of it as having courage but I have the courage to go in and help this dude back in his chair and help him up because he had, he had, he was suffering from an ailment, right, and he just having that connection like, “Man, if I fall down, I’ll have somebody to help me up. Almost my help compassion for me to say, you know, I mean, this dude is telling me help you murderer. You know, what I mean, it’s just having the compassion to act like man, when somebody’s in pain, we’ll help this person. 

01:16:20Charlie Yeah. And so yeah, and so what’s coming up is the… the pain word and the suffering word that Joe brought up, right. So the… the root word of compassion is pati, P-A-T-I, cum, c… C-U-M, right and what it means is to suffer with. All right and so when we really look at compassion and we… we say to suffer with, what is, why… why do you guys think that it is so hard to practice compassion sometimes? 

01:16:50UNKNOWN Because of the pain that is real. 

01:16:55Charlie Yeah, right. 

01:16:55UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:16:55Charlie So our tendency when pain is brought to us, our default mode is not usually compassion, it is to self-protect, right? And how does that self-protection come out? It comes out in different ways for different people. Well, we started looking at it as, it can come out in judgment, right, because if I judge you, then I don’t have to feel your pain. It can come out in uh… blame, right, like this was your fault. 

01:17:20UNKNOWN What did you do here… 

01:17:25Charlie Right? And there’s only one other way that it… it’s really important that can come out which is… and I’m drawing a blank on it. 

01:17:30UNKNOWN Denial. 

01:17:30UNKNOWN What is denial? 

01:17:35Charlie What is denial? Now, I’ll keep going. Oh, the fix it mode, right? So let me fix it, right, because if I keep busy with fixing it then I don’t have to suffer with it, with you. Do we see that? 

01:17:50UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:17:50Charlie And… and that’s… that’s… that’s another way that umm… our default mode is kind of set. So it isn’t usually the first thing that we turn to. Yeah. Travis? 

01:18:00Travis Now I have a question for you, guys. 

01:18:00Charlie Yeah, yeah, go ahead. 

01:18:00Travis Uh… Is it possible to have compassion if you don’t understand the person sometimes? 

01:18:05Charlie Good. No. So that… that… that’s right, right, so we see empathy playing in, but we see a bigger piece and I think this piece is directly related to what Danny pointed out earlier. So right, so we have to come to a place of self-acceptance. The more we accept ourselves and others, the more compassionate we can be. And what I mean by that is the more we accept those dark sides and the more we accept our past, we can accept that in others, we can come from a place of going there with them and suffering with them, right? We can wade into it with them, we can hold their hand through it because we understand it and we understand that we’re all flawed. Yeah. Go ahead. Somebody had their hand up, Robert, yeah. 

01:18:50Robert I like the question that he asked you… 

01:18:55Charlie Yeah. It’s really a good question. 

01:18:55Robert …that uh… I can’t have compassion for somebody else until I have it for myself. 

01:18:55Charlie That’s right. 

01:19:00Robert Having an understanding of, I can’t love somebody else until I love myself. 

01:19:05Charlie Some people would argue against that, but okay. 

01:19:05Robert I’m sure and I’m sure they… 

01:19:05Charlie Yeah. 

01:19:10Robert …yes, tons of them will, but in my experience I haven’t always loved myself, I haven’t always had compassion for myself, I haven’t always had empathy for… for me. 

01:19:15Charlie Yeah, that’s good. 

01:19:20Robert And once I started to understand that I was worthy of those things, then they could be out… out for somebody else. I can have compassion to suffer with somebody else. 

01:19:25Charlie That’s right. 

01:19:30Robert I have the empathy, I can love somebody else in an, in an unconditional way, true love, whatever that is, or the definition is. 

01:19:35Adam Zagelbaum It sounds like it reached a deeper level because it started from a thing that helped you understand how to help others as supposed to just going through acts to help others kind of like the fix-it mode maybe then that Charlie alluded to. Umm… so when it started from you and it focused on doing for others, it got to the deeper level. 

01:19:55Robert And it, and it really started from the guilt, shame, understanding that, yeah. 

01:20:00Charlie Yeah. Thank you. And there’s… there’s something what I’m going to add to this, but big man haven’t talked all day, c’mon , man. 

01:20:05Jack For me uh… compassion is doing some for others regardless of what the consequences may be. Umm… just being a support system for someone, that’s my definition, may not… 

01:20:15Charlie Sure. Yeah. 

01:20:15Jack …be for someone, but is for me is being there in the need without looking for anything or just doing it because it’s the right thing to do. 

01:20:25Charlie Yeah. 

01:20:25Jack Like for instance, somebody uh… an elderly person walk across the street. just stay there because, hey, you know, I’ll come, this woman can get hit by a car or whatever, but it’s just being there without looking for anything, that’s just me, that’s my path, my personal opinion. 

01:20:45Charlie Well, I would also say that two big pieces of having compassion are setting boundaries and accountability, right? That those two things are present in having compassion, right? And so let’s look at why, why do we think setting boundaries would be an important thing for compassion? 


01:21:10Charlie Move. Okay. So good, we have the self-boundaries, right? So we have the self-boundaries that are set in there, right? I’m not willing to cause any more suffering, so there is a self-boundary. Uh… I think it was McGil on the row, that I missing why we are here? Excuse me, guys. All right, go ahead. 

01:21:25McGil I was just, like, the logical thing is that if you’re trying to prevent one’s suffering, we’re not going to cause in someone life. 

01:21:30Charlie Yes. So that’s the self-boundary, right. So what else? Umm… Rob and then I’m jumping in. 

01:21:40Robert So setting boundaries in this… in this instance, compassion would be, for me is I’m not gonna, I’m gonna set a boundary where, I’m going to suffer with them, but I’m not going to take on their… their issue. And I’m gonna be accountable to myself and to the moment with this other person. 

01:21:55Charlie Okay. Good, right? Uh… And there’s also, so what happens is, I allow a little Charlie here to walk all over me, to take advantage of my compassion. What happens? Or my empathy and he starts using me for it. What happens to Charlie? 

01:22:15UNKNOWN Which one? 

01:22:15Charlie This… this one. 

01:22:15UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:22:15UNKNOWN Self respect. 

01:22:20Charlie Right? What happens when somebody takes advantage of, if we begin to use him, that person, right? We instantly lose compassion for them when we begin to resent them. So we become less angry in our lives when we set boundaries, right? Which opens up the door for us to be more compassionate. Joe, or otherwise Danny. Yeah. 

01:22:40Danny What came to my mind with the idea of setting boundaries in relation to compassion… 

01:22:45Charlie Sure. 

01:22:45Danny …uh… was the idea of preventing any kind of codependency, right? And that so… 

01:22:50Charlie So what do you do think about it? 

01:22:50Danny So the other person, you know, I am compassionate so I wanna help them, but, you know, they need to be able to uh… to, I don’t know, help themselves and kind of going back to some of what we’re talking about earlier, saying, being able to close emotional loops, right? 

01:23:05Charlie Yes. 

01:23:10Adam Zagelbaum We want to be able to inspire people to do things for themselves, but at the same time you know that you’re a resource for them at that moment that are really able to get from that. So it’s important that the imbalance and… and that’s why I’m hearing when you say co-dependence. 

01:23:20UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:23:25Charlie Good. Thank you. So before we go to Joe, all right, you have the definition. I know you got one here, one here in your bowl. So go ahead, we’ll go with first, Kels. 

01:23:30Kels Uh… It’s interesting because, about the practice he told you about the judgment piece probably… 

01:23:35Charlie Yeah. 

01:23:35Kels Right? So it says umm… sympathetic consciousness of others distress together with a desire to alleviate… alleviate, right, is umm… to make a suffering more variable or sympathetic alleviated its distress to personally we move or correct. 

01:23:55Charlie Right. So to… to relieve suffering basically, right… right. And so what happens when we are in connection… what happens we’re in connection with other people, right? Does a suffering seem to be a little less? 

01:24:10Ronald Yeah. 

01:24:10Charlie Right? When we feel like we’re seen hurt, we’re not judged. 

01:24:15Travis I’m just curious on… on… on if you could close this out in the sense of, you said, these are the elements that help us move through shame… 

01:24:25Charlie That’s right. 

01:24:25Travis …or… or to get to alleviate shame. 

01:24:25Charlie Yeah, to help us… 

01:24:25Travis Yeah, as I’m reading through that I’m… I’m… I’m… I’m wondering, is that compassion that we received from others in order to help us get through the shame or compassion we fill for ourselves? I’m gonna try… 

01:24:35Charlie Yeah. So I feel both, right? So having compassion for yourself doesn’t always be jumping all the way into it, right, it means leaning into it, right. Dealing with that supper solely at a time and then it is also from others, somebody else, all right, through that connection, through somebody holding your hand that understands it, right. And that accepts their own dark side, and their own experiences with dealing with shame. Does that make sense? Is that your question? 

01:25:05Travis I mean it does ‘cause I… I can’t help, but look at all this and see how a circle keeping process is so effective. In this institution and other institutions, you know, you have the courage to speak your mind, your heart of what’s transpired. Your past, your traumas… 

01:25:15Charlie Yeah. 

01:25:20Travis You have connection because you’re sitting there… 

01:25:20Charlie That’s right. 

01:25:20Travis …speaking with gentlemen that have experienced things with you… 

01:25:20Charlie That’s right. 

01:25:25Travis …and you have an open mind and the compassion that you have for yourself and the compassion you see in the circle whether it’s from a facilitator or participant. So I could see how… 

01:25:35Encouragement and praise for group 

01:25:35Charlie Yeah, and the group sets the boundaries for themselves as well, right? To… to create that safe space so connection can happen and courage can happen. Yeah and… and go ahead. And I just want to say something, let me, let me say this real quick and then I’ll come to you, Danny, which is like, to give ourselves the credit, all right, like, how many men in prison or on the streets come together to be able to talk about these issues, right? And to be able to express some of the things that we’re talking about today and just to keep shame around, to keep vulnerability around, right, we’re modeling some of that today. All right, so… so to give ourselves credit for actually practicing some of this stuff and coming to a better idea of… of what it is we wanna practice in our own lives. So Danny and then last comment will bring mine. 

01:26:20Danny So I just wanna… wanna, you know, bring to effort, right, but I have compassion for myself when I made the decisions that uh… led to me committing murder. I don’t know if I’m ever going to use the word forgiveness for committing murder. I’m never gonna forgive myself for that, I… I don’t believe. But I have compassion and I forgive myself for choosing to believe that I wasn’t good enough, that I wasn’t worthy of love and acceptance which led to that path of me choosing to commit murder. Umm… And all this work that we… we’ve done and especially this and I love that Ernie Bown, Brown, TED talk is beautiful. 

01:26:55Charlie Yeah. 

01:27:00Danny And that is a, that really was what enabled me to really start to forgive the Danny who made those earlier choices. 

01:27:05Charlie Yeah, Ernie Brown is awesome, man. Yeah. Thank you for that. Uh… Big Mike. 

01:27:10Jack Also, you know, when I’m, when I talk about compassion is what we, by all of us in the room today, you know, this is what compassion is umm… for one another. 

01:27:20Charlie Yeah. 

01:27:20Jack Umm… Despite where we are, we all have compassion because we’re in the same position, point. We’re still, each of one have our own journey and we’re going along when at certain, the same journey with each other, even though we don’t even know where, you know, then when we’re sitting here speaking about things that merely made us speak about… 

01:27:40Charlie That’s right. 

01:27:40Jack Umm… And it takes not only the connection that we’re going through, but it takes courage to open up to become vulnerable for all man in this room, especially myself in the team to express about some of the things that I went, went through and said, you know. Uh… So I really appreciate it, man, because this is suggesting always more tools that I can put in my toolbox because to me everybody opinion here is… is valuable because you all have something to give to one another and to take away from that. Let’s, you know, we…we are all compassionate people, we just made bad choices… 

01:28:15Charlie That’s right. 

01:28:15Jack …bad decisions so. This is a good thing then I hope you can do this sometime here, I think all you guys will see it in a… 

01:28:25Charlie We do it every week on Sunday morning. 

01:28:30Segment 5: 


01:28:35Charlie prompts members that the session will be ending soon. He uses this opportunity to make certain that every member has a chance to verbally contribute before termination. Though some theoretical approaches do not require all members to speak for the sake of group process, the time constraints in prison settings suggest that members should verbally check in with each other at least by the end of the close out period, so as not to miss out on what can otherwise be several days or weeks. 

01:29:00UNKNOWN Yeah… yeah. 

01:29:00UNKNOWN Accountability, you didn’t speak of accountability. 

01:29:05Charlie Yeah, it’s… it’s… it’s… it’s all the people accountable to, accountable to those abilities that’s in their behavior as well, all right, and just having compassion because if you’re not owning something accountable for the behavior then resentment can build, right? And so it’s… it’s a part of becoming less angry and having capacity because once I get to that place, I’m probably not gonna have compassion for the person. 

01:29:20Adam Zagelbaum And I’m minimizing in a long way. And we will honestly see more part of being accountable with you, umm… for understanding that part. Yeah. Okay. 

01:29:35Charlie So… so… so I’m gonna be… be quite, so I’m gonna go ahead and end the moment up. Common. 

01:29:35Summit Umm… The moment now umm… I think for me right being young and being in this kind of environment, it was kind of like, I started off, it was kind of hard to talk about everything I… and what helped me out is not just speaking to somebody else, but it was having that courage, connection, compassion for myself until you can sit with it and sit with that guilt and be tough all the day and when I started writing and my truth was out on paper in front of me… 

01:30:05Charlie Yeah… yeah. 

01:30:05Summit …that’s when I started accepting it. And that’s what led to like the transformation I guess, that I’m able to sit in the room like this and talk about it. 

01:30:10Charlie Yeah, thank you. 

01:30:15Summit But, yes. 

01:30:15Charlie Yeah. And I’ll thank you, that’s important, right, and that’s like, that piece which Travis wouldn’t have to accept this, right? Being able to accept yourself and accept others in big part having compassion. I didn’t know you were young, I thought you was kind of… 

01:30:25UNKNOWN He’s a weird man. 

01:30:30Charlie Yeah, that’s my boy. So thank you, guys. And I thank you all for today. Before we go, yeah, you… you have something. Yeah we’re gonna do a check out, we’re gonna do one more check out, are you guys cool with that? Yeah, we’ll do one more check up, maybe… maybe two. Yeah… yeah, okay, well, we’ll start with Dawood. 

01:30:45Dawood Uh… awesome experience. 

01:30:45Charlie Thank you, thanks for being here. 

01:30:45Dawood Yeah. Thank you. 

01:30:50UNKNOWN Connection. 

01:30:50Charlie Connection. 

01:30:55William Enlightenment. 

01:30:55McGil Appreciative. 

01:30:55UNKNOWN Inspiring. 

01:31:00Robert Umm… Great. 

01:31:05Jack I’m happy. 

01:31:05Charlie Happy. 

01:31:10Kels Umm… motivated go cavaliers… 

01:31:10Charlie Really? 

01:31:10Kels Yes. 

01:31:10Charlie Yeah. 

01:31:10UNKNOWN Excitement. 

01:31:10Charlie Right. 

01:31:15UNKNOWN Empathetic. 

01:31:20Travis Encouraged. 

01:31:20Joe Enchanting. 

01:31:20Danny Uh… Grateful. 

01:31:25UNKNOWN Enlightened. 

01:31:25Ronald Thankful. 

01:31:25Eric Informed. 

01:31:25Robert Inspired. 

01:31:30Adam Zagelbaum I can’t give one word. 

01:31:30UNKNOWN Yeah. 

01:31:30Adam Zagelbaum But I’m gonna say that uh… what I hope this experience kind of showcases to… to people watching uh… is that essentially uh… when you see how, you know, sending like prison what it means to take that courage and that risk to be vulnerable and to put those things out there in a way where umm… you can take these topics around built in where we have expertise from the outside as well as expertise from within, try to make sure it all comes together. That’s what makes this kind of effective program. I want to get behind and for volunteers that, I mean, I otherwise understand what it’s like partner with people umm… it’s important because what you’re training on the outside also has to translate in the inside and the work that Charlie does as a facilitator, I think, it gives a bit of illustration about, umm… you let that process unfold in the room. And we’re here to also pack it up and I think that’s a great sign of how uh… facilitation is time. I appreciate Charlie being and we’ll take the lead on that. I also want to thank a lot of other people that have been a big part of getting this thankful, (inaudible). 

01:32:45UNKNOWN Move it on. 


01:32:55Adam Zagelbaum …remembering from community partnerships honestly, and there’s a lot of uh… really strong people who stood in volunteer roles of the program in a long way. Umm… Become from so many different blocks and so many different backgrounds uh… all through social science like coaching and education, various other uh… things. I’m proud that, you know, this is a slitter of what we do hopefully shows a very large amount of what everybody brings to the table. And, of course, I’d like to thank (inaudible) got me first hooked up with this place, uh… that’s now Sonoma University and all the students and folks that come with me in volunteer capacity to do this as well. Umm… I think uh… there’s a lot that goes into making this work. I’m glad that there’s so many that want to make it happen especially, the men in blue that make that happen each and every week. So, yeah. 

01:33:45Charlie Thank you for being here. 

01:33:50Adam Zagelbaum No problem. 

01:33:50Charlie Yeah. And so I think I was really grateful, thank you, guys, thank you. 



About “Group Counseling with Inmates: San Quentin Prison”

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